09-14-2004
posted by Franz


Dammit Cutter, I know I see 3 phase secondary on the second set of poles that look to be on the other side of the street, I even labeled em for ya. Do I need to send Paul over there with his truck?

Franz


 

09-14-2004
posted by Cutter



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim314
Cutter, I'm enjoying this thread. Could you explain the siding pockets a little in the picture. I don't understand what they are or what they do?



Sure, Jim. The picture I am posting below shows the pockets on either side of the front door. The framework of the building and the door frame sit on top of the slab while the siding sits down in the recessed pocket inset into the outside corner of the slab. This prevents rain, dirt etc., from blowing under the siding. I will try to get a picture of that tomorrow while Jessie & Rudy are installing sheet metal.

The pocket was formed by nailing a 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 all along the inside of the 2 x 4 (or 2 x 6 ) forms before the concrete was poured.


__________________
cutter


 

09-14-2004
posted by Jim314



OK, thanks. Got it now.


Jim314
 

09-14-2004
posted by Cutter



Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
Dammit Cutter, I know I see 3 phase secondary on the second set of poles that look to be on the other side of the street, I even labeled em for ya.

Do I need to send Paul over there with his truck?



Ummm, could you please?

Franz, I admit that I'm in over my head dealing with this guy and with the whole issue of 3phase. But Warren said they would have to install 2 240 volt transformers on the pole just outside my fence. I told him you said something about an available mini substation & I could see that that gave him a pause, but he chuckled & said something about "No, you don't need to go quite that far." If I understood him correctly, that is 480 volts runnung down the alley.
I did leave the options open & he said to call if he could be any help.
By the way, what is a mini-substation?

From there, I dropped by Southwestern Electric supply to price out the service equipment. The city &/or the provider are now requiring a disconnect mounted with the meter base and the meter base must also have a built-in bypass. Then the indoor breaker box has to have a main breaker in either 200 amp single phase or 100 amp 3phase. This starts getting pricey in a hurry for either service. For single phase, 200 amps I am looking at about $550, including tax & for 3phase about $925 plus the cost of the transformers.
Any advice about saving money would be most welcome, from any of you. At the rate this is going, I may be looking at going with a 100 amp service just to get out of this alive.
__________________
cutter



 

09-14-2004
posted by Franz



OK one more time;
Look at the picture, I labeled the 3 phase secondary wires at the top of the forklift boom. Those are either 240 or 480 volt Y 3 phase. Look to the left of the boom, and you see 4 secondary insulators on the side of the pole.
On that same pole, above the secondarys, is a pair of crossarms carrying 3 phase primary probably 7200 volts.
Warren is p[robably saying you can have 3 phase @240 volts, but you gotta pay for the transformer, and that will probably be big $$$$.
Since there is already 480? Y on the poles, you should be able to get that installed, at no charge. The cost of a 600 volt meter base will be higher, and the cost of the 600 volt main breaker will be higher than 300 volt equipment, but both of those costs will be cheaper than the transformers from primary to 240 volt.

Mini Substation = GE product nomenclature for a 3 phase dry transformer that is used in large buildings to drop 480 3 phase to 120/240 3 phase. The one I have is NOS, and has a breaker panel attached.
By using a minisub, you would have 480 volt 3 phase, 240 volt 3 phase and 120 volt single phase in the shop, and a SOBBING Shade at the door delivering so many tears he'd have grass growing to knee height in days.
Hell, I might even be able to dig up a 3 300 volt phase pannel if you give me a few days.


 

09-15-2004
posted by Cutter




Okay, I didn't get the part about dropping 480 to the shop but I wonder if they would even do that. Before we pursue this much farther, tell me why do I really need 3 phase all that badly? I currently have 2 pieces of equipment that require it & a rotoverter will run them both & will probably handle anything else I might acquire in the future. That will cost me maybe $100 to put together, maybe a little more. I admit that having the idler motor running anytime I use the CH compressor or the old Clausing press could get tiresome, but I do not want to spend an extra thousand or three just to avoid it. And the fact is, unless I run the MM251 full out a lot of the time (which I won't ), 100amp service in the shop should do all right for me. This is just a one man hobby shop, after all.
The equipment situation is further complicated by the new requirements for the meterbase bypass & the now-required outside disconnect. The counter guy I was talking to today said there wasn't even a good way to anticipate whether Excel would want the disconnect ahead of the meterbase or following it because they have not been consistent about that in the last month or two. And by the way, the 3 phase disconnect was $532; I can get a single phase for about $150. And finally there is the timeline; as soon as Pablo & staff finish up, I will need to hang the overhead door & I will be ready for power. Either 100 amp or 200 amp single phase will be far quicker to schedule than 3 phase. Then I have a fence to worry about.
I think all of this is giving me brain fever.
__________________
cutter

 

09-15-2004
posted by Franz




Reason #1 for Cutter having 3 phase in the new shop, to make Shade cry, because Cutter & Franz both have 3 phase in their shops.
OK, so I really can't come up with a good #2 reason, given your scenario.
Given those circumstances, if you have a 100 amp service in the house, why the hell do you even need a service in the shop? The monthly meter charge will be eliminated by running the shop from the house power, and you won't be paying commercial power rates for the shop either.


 

09-15-2004
posted by Cutter



Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
Reason #1 for Cutter having 3 phase in the new shop, to make Shade cry, because Cutter & Franz both have 3 phase in their shops.
OK, so I really can't come up with a good #2 reason, given your scenario.
Given those circumstances, if you have a 100 amp service in the house, why the hell do you even need a service in the shop? The monthly meter charge will be eliminated by running the shop from the house power, and you won't be paying commercial power rates for the shop either.



LOLOL! Several issues suddenly cleared right up simultaneously. For those of you in Rosa Lindo & Ruidosa that means "all at the same time". So the 3 phase issue is a red herring except that I do still have to build the rotoverter. I really don't want or need a pile of expensive exotic electrical crap nailed to the wall of the shop when I would probably never tap more than half of its load capacity, if that. And I had been dreading wrangling with the city and the powcom at the sale time & probably be paying an electrician to bale me out of the bind. I truly hate being whipsawed like that.
So all I really need is a load distribution box in the shop & I think I already have enough stuff on hand to get started. I know I have a Seiman's 100 amp box minus the front cover that I found in an empty house a few weeks ago. I can take it over to Southwestern & see about a panel for it. A 70 amp breaker to fit it is about $23, and any lower size runs $4 or $5. Warren suggested that if I needed more power, I might consider running 150 amps to the house and tapping into that. Some cost there, might have to upgrade the meter base but the savings gained by avoiding the extra meter charge would zero that out very quickly. Then I can wait until after the final plumbing inspection & be through with the P&Z inspectors. Then I can run a little underground line 11 feet from the back of the hose to the shop and .....
Yeah, all that makes a lot more sense.
__________________
cutter

 

09-15-2004
posted by Franz



Cutter, presumably you have an amprobe, and if you don't, either spend 20 bucks for one of the BrandX units on ePay, or borrow one. Hang that puppy on each leg of yor service drop to the house, and see what the house actually draws. I hung 3 different units on my service before I believed how little amperage the house draws.
The average house, without electric heat, or AC running burns around 600kwh per month according to our Baby Enron, and when you adjust and extrapolate all that power out over a 30 day cycle, you have a 100 amp service that is providing a 5 amp load 99.9% of the time.
I've spent a lot of time explaining to people that they really don't need 200 amp services and or 15kva generator plants to keep them up during power failures to the extent I'm thoroughly fed up with humanity. I've been informed too many times I can't possibly know what I'm talking about, cause (insert name) Electric, the professionals who run Romex told them they need a 200 amp service. Well, Joey the stupid busturds, let em get Joeyed out of $2500- for a useless service they will never begin to load, and let em buy a friggin oversized genset, I don't give a rats a$$.
The next time the power craps here, I'll crank up my 1952 7.5k Onan and power up 2 houses and the shop with it, and locate the truck with the 3500 watt machine in backup position, so I can continuously power everything and have sufficient power to run all my outside lights, just to piss the neighbors off.
The majority of people doing residential electrical work are barely qualified to hook up a doorbell, and are little more than crooks with a toolbelt. They won't last 1 hour in my world where the fun begins at 480 volts.



 

09-15-2004
posted by TheFrenchCanadian



Those siding pockets sure give the building a nice finished look. I wish we could do that here... I suspect they don't because of the risk of water getting in there and freezing & breaking the concrete & heaving the wall...

I helped my buddy erect a 40' X 60' shop with a 16' ceiling last year and let me tell you, yours sure looks like it's way stronger with all those beams and guywires tensioning the works! (not that his was bad by any means...)
We ended up around 1/8" out in the corners by the time it was all said and done with his shop mostly due to the fact his other buddy is a framer by trade and was the acting foreman... we were sitting around smiling after that too, let me tell you! It's a good feeling, isn't it?
Every time I go out to his farm, I look at that building and feel proud knowing that it's damn near perfect, and that I played a small part in making come together!

You're almost there Cutter - keep up the good work!!

A pic of my best buddy Todder's shop... (he's a member here too BTW... mostly a lurker, he's a bit shy... )




 

09-15-2004
posted by Cutter



Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
Cutter, presumably you have an amprobe, and if you don't, either spend 20 bucks for one of the BrandX units on ePay, or borrow one. Hang that puppy on each leg of yor service drop to the house, and see what the house actually draws. I hung 3 different units on my service before I believed how little amperage the house draws.
The average house, without electric heat, or AC running burns around 600kwh per month according to our Baby Enron, and when you adjust and extrapolate all that power out over a 30 day cycle, you have a 100 amp service that is providing a 5 amp load 99.9% of the time.




Yup, and I sure am glad to hear you remark about that 'cuz I have puzzled over it for years. Because I work mostly on old rent houses I deal mostly with seemingly underpowered situations, some with old fuse boxes that have 2 wires per lug & sometimes even with black rubber lamp sockets filling for burned out fuse holders or add-ons. When you factor in that brittle 16 gauge wire with the cloth insulation, 20 & 30 amp fuses instead of the intended 15's and then add up the load of blow dryers, toasters, electric heaters on zip cord and entertainment systems, big screen TV's & computers all plugged into the same circuit, there is no way for it to make theoretical sense. But somehow, they keep on working.

I do have an old flea market Amprobe and I have marveled at the readings I usually get. I can get away with the single service much easier than most because I live alone, never cook while welding and the dogs don't watch a lot of TV or blow their hair dry when they know I am using up the juice. I haven't powered up my oven in years, rarely use more than one burner at a time on the range and no longer use the refrigerated air because I got tired of getting screwed. I think it will work just fine & if it doesn't I can always add a drop later on.
__________________
cutter

 

09-15-2004
posted by madam X


Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter
LOLOL! Several issues suddenly cleared right up simultaneously. <snip>
Yeah, all that makes a lot more sense.



I just hope this means poor Shade will be able to avoid brain damage. That thumping sound could be heard all the way up here in Maine - quite disconcerting.

What would we do without him?
__________________
madam X - Site Empress for Life
Director of Policy, Inane Matters (by appointment)
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc

Now go kill something for me


 

09-15-2004
posted by Snidley



That was Ron thumping his head? One might easily have confused it with a chopper going by.
__________________
Snidley

Here in the Great White North
Mosquitoes can't fly at 40 below


 

09-15-2004
posted by fatfrank


Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter

and no longer use the refrigerated air because I got tired of getting screwed..



Cutter, are you saying that you don't run your AC to cool the house?

I have 200A service at my house, when I moved in it had an additional detached garage that was unfinished. I had an electrician come over and run a new 100A box out to the garage. I then insulated it and put a couple of window AC units in. I haven't had any problem running my AC units, stickwelder and having a small air compressor cycling on and off.

fatfrank


 

09-15-2004
posted by Cutter



Quote:
Originally Posted by fatfrank
Cutter, are you saying that you don't run your AC to cool the house?




Correct. 3 or 4 winters ago when we got gouged so badly on natural gas & the electric companies started following suit, I got my back up & said "no mas". That spring I dug up pair of little swamp box window units & by fall I had a woodstove & a pile of wood. Then I enlisted the help of a buddy & built a log splitter. Since that time I have paid an average of $28 a month for natural gas (water heater) and about $50 for electric. I mostly burn free firewood from wind & ice-damaged trees but I have been really slack about accumulating enough this summer & will probably end up having to buy some. Still I figure I save at least $100 a month & that's $1200 a year or enough to buy a pretty nice toy now & then.
Again, I can get away with this because I only have to please my dogs & myself. They don't complain & I am nearly always gone during the hottest part of the day except weekends & have found I don't really have to have a house so cool I get goosebumps anyway. I think we have been conned into believing we have to live a bit more luxuriously than we really need in a lot of ways so I just dropped off the list where I could make the most difference.
__________________
cutter


 

09-15-2004
posted by fatfrank



Dang, that electric bill sure sounds nice. I think my electric bill has stayed around $350-400 this summer and it has been a pretty mild summer for W.F. Last August (my first month in my new house) the electric was $499. I almost had a heart attack. I think I could handle the heat with a couple of swamp coolers, but I would soon be single living only with the dog also. I think my wife likes to keep the AC on 70 all summer and the electric heat about 73 during the winter.

I bet there isn't many people who live in lubbock without AC

fatfrank


 

09-15-2004
posted by Jim314




Just got my TXU bills in today. $242 for house, $21 for shop and $12 for the guard light. GOOD GOING CUTTER !!!


 

09-15-2004
posted by 7018




Boy u guys in Texas got it bad.My house is all electric and with the shop bill it was a whole 196.00 last month.....



 

09-16-2004
posted by Cutter


Day 3 Sept 15th


The crew installed the rest of the siding, insulation & siding trim yesterday. As with everything else, the devil is indeed in the details.
 

__________________
cutter

 

09-16-2004
posted by Cutter




FYI, the insulation added $978.60 (plus tax) to the cost of the building packet. While they were busy with sheetmetal, I went out to Wolfforth to pick up a half stick of the door trim/gutter so they could finish installing it over the right hand corner of the overhead door. About a 25 mile round trip
 

__________________
cutter

 

09-16-2004
posted by Cutter




So they had the siding & insulation all screwed down before lunch but the trim took all afternoon. Not a very dramatic day but Thurday should see the roof installed & these guys can call it done, I think. I haven't taken any pictures of the finished trim; will do today.
 

__________________
cutter



 

09-16-2004
posted by MattyV



is it just me or does Cutter have this uncanny nack for starting these HUGE threads.
Looking good, cant wait to check out the updates.

MattyV

 

09-16-2004
posted by Wyoming



Cutter, Are you going to have a ceiling or insulation in below the roof? Makes for a much more enjoyable shop both during the summer and the winter. If I open the doors just prior to sunrise during the summer to let in the cool morning air I can keep the shop cool enough to work in until almost sundown if I keep the doors closed during the day. I've never had more than the minimum heat bill during the winter although I keep the thermostat pegged on 40-45 degrees except for a 10 minute run with the radiant gas ceiling heaters first thing after unlocking the door in the morning. It ain't perfect, but it is better than paying a fortune in gas and electric bills. As long as I'm not sweating so bad I can't see or shaking too much to hold a tool the temperature is about right.



 

09-16-2004
posted by 7018




Its looking real good!those guys a doing a good job.And that trim is called JChannel just incase u were curious.


 

09-16-2004
posted by fatfrank



Its looking really good, I just wish it was going up in my back yard.


 

09-16-2004
posted by Franz



Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyV
is it just me or does Cutter have this uncanny nack for starting these HUGE threads.
Looking good, cant wait to check out the updates.





In reality, Cutter is Bob Villa.


 

09-16-2004
posted by Sirarcalot



Quote:
In reality, Cutter is Bob Villa.



No way, Franz. I like Cutter.
__________________
Marcus,

 

09-16-2004
posted by Snidley



Speaking of Cutter and his long threads - What ever happened to the big vice? Is it still soaking or has it become a boat anchor?
__________________
Snidley

Here in the Great White North
Mosquitoes can't fly at 40 below
 

09-16-2004
posted by Cutter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz
In reality, Cutter is Bob Villa.



That is as low a blow as I've ever had. Not even Joey ever called me that; he just referred to me as a "70 - something year old man" who posted pornography on his turf. But he never said anything about Bob Vila.
__________________
cutter



 

09-16-2004
posted by Cutter



I took this shot late this morning. When I got in this evening, the forklift was gone. They guys were gone, too but I suspect I will see them one more time since there is a little matter of the check. <s> I could not have been more fortunate in picking my "build team". They are real pros & work together so seamlessly they are just plain fun to watch.
From this point, I have to install the overhead door, plumb in the commode & sink - get it inspected & I think I will be through with the city. Then do some rudimentary wiring, install lights.
THEN, I still have the fence to build and that brings the challenge of the gate. I tell you guys, a mother's work is just never done.


__________________
cutter

 

09-16-2004
posted by Cutter



Quote:
Originally Posted by Snidley
Speaking of Cutter and his long threads - What ever happened to the big vice? Is it still soaking or has it become a boat anchor?



Snidley, this was covered earlier this month, September 3rd. (I had to remove the smilies.) To wit:



Quote:
Originally Posted by atucker
Hope this all works out OK. As I remember, the last LLOOONNNNGGG thread you started is still in the bucket soaking. Maybe when the shop gets done you can finish the vise?
Allen T.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFrenchCanadian
Allen, you're reading my mind! I was gonna post and suggest that as a great symbolic first project, Cutter should takle that vise as soon as his shp is set up... and then bolt it to his workbench and put it to good use on all his subsequent projects!!

Luc




Quote:
Originally Posted by cutter
Fair enough. Agreed. But with the understanding that it will probably take until Christmas for me to get all my stuff moved & set up.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFrenchCanadian
Understood! Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if it took you longer than that, it would for me, anyways! But when you're ready, we'll be watching
Until then, I won't say a word about it! No pressure...



__________________
cutter

 

09-17-2004
posted by Cutter



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyoming
Cutter, Are you going to have a ceiling or insulation in below the roof? Makes for a much more enjoyable shop both during the summer and the winter. If I open the doors just prior to sunrise during the summer to let in the cool morning air I can keep the shop cool enough to work in until almost sundown if I keep the doors closed during the day. I've never had more than the minimum heat bill during the winter although I keep the thermostat pegged on 40-45 degrees except for a 10 minute run with the radiant gas ceiling heaters first thing after unlocking the door in the morning. It ain't perfect, but it is better than paying a fortune in gas and electric bills. As long as I'm not sweating so bad I can't see or shaking too much to hold a tool the temperature is about right.



Wy,

I gotta admit you're a lot tougher than I am. I have never been able to condition myself to tolerate being cold & that is a fact that has become more evident over the years. When my hands get cold, they get numb right away & I lose my sense of touch; then my body begins to follow suit & I have something resembling an allergic reaction & start sneezing & my nose starts running exactly like a reaction to pollen or any other allergen. At that point I may as well go to the house because all I can do is blow my nose and pull my britches up. I might well have been the subject of Service's Yukon tale, Sam McGee.

So the answer to your question is, "hell yes, the roof is insulated!" And there will be a source of heat, maybe two. I have a little Vogelzang "Deluxe" woodstove (missing the legs) over at my other (soon to be 'former') shop. I bought it from a returned merchandise re-cycling store for 25 bucks several years ago & set it on some firebricks & used it a couple of winters when I had to do some night work over there. It works pretty well. I also have been saving a forced-air natural gas shop furnace - the kind that is usually suspended from the roof trusses. I liberated it from the evil clutches of the plumber who installed central air in a backyard workshop that a customer converted to living quarters a few years ago. I was there to install some doors & plumb the bathroom fixtures & asked what would happen to the little heater? She gave it to me. Since I don't currently have gas in the shop, I will need to install the stove first but sooner or later, I 'spect the furnace will be hanging around somewhere. I haven't decided what I will do about cooling the joint yet, probably just stick in a swampbox.

edit: I decided to add a picture of the roof insulation.
 

__________________
cutter



 

09-17-2004
posted by fatfrank



You might as well get a photo of the inside of the shop while its empty, clean and new. If your at all like me and a lot of the guys in the forum, it may never look that nice again.

You planning on painting the floor? I have seen a few ads for garage floor paint and other coatings and was considering doing my garage floor, but was hoping someone else would do all the research and let me know what is the best .


 

09-17-2004
cutter



Frank, I painted one garage floor in my life because I ran across a closeout sale on the paint. And I thought dark brown might keep it from looking stained, I guess. But I let it sit & cure for about 2 weeks, then the first time I parked a car on it, the paint stuck to the tread & peeled off the floor just as purty as if you had planned it that way. So that was that & I don't care to try it again.
__________________
cutter

 

09-17-2004
posted by arcdawg




looks good...........how many neighbors has this project pissed off ?

aw how cares you got a new shop ! congrats cutter !!!!!

dawg


 

09-17-2004
posted by morpheus



looks good cutter !

If you plan on doing much welding in there I wouldn't paint the floor. I painted mine and while it is quite nice for several reasons: it makes the place brighter since the floor reflects light more than bare concrete, it cleans up fluid spills easily but the downside is that welding sparks/slag/etc burn the paint on the floor ... If I had it to do over again I would have just "sealed" the floor, not painted it with any color.
__________________
Jack's Place - 4x4's, Tools, Humor, Bungi Jumping and more ....


 

09-17-2004
posted by fatfrank



Quote:
Originally Posted by morpheus
looks good cutter !

If you plan on doing much welding in there I wouldn't paint the floor. I painted mine and while it is quite nice for several reasons: it makes the place brighter since the floor reflects light more than bare concrete, it cleans up fluid spills easily but the downside is that welding sparks/slag/etc burn the paint on the floor ... If I had it to do over again I would have just "sealed" the floor, not painted it with any color.




I was wanting to paint the floor for the benefit of being easier to clean, sweep up the dust easier etc. I didn't really consider the issure of burning paint. I wonder if there is anything that would make the floor easier to sweep up but not burn?


 

09-17-2004
posted by morpheus




I would put that "sealer" stuff on it ... it's not like the paint burns as in catches on fire. I just have about a million burned spots on my once nice clean grey floor.
__________________
Jack's Place - 4x4's, Tools, Humor, Bungi Jumping and more ....


 

09-17-2004
posted by Wyoming


Cutter, As far as working in the cold or hot I'm about as "sissy" as they get. As I said before, I crank the heat for 10 minutes as soon as I hit the inside of the shop and with it insulated as well as it is...R40 in ceiling, R19 in sidewalls and R17+ in the overhead doors... it usually stays warm enough to be comfortable for a good long time. Keeping it cool is more of a problem...I have to rely on the early dawn door trick to keep the temperature tolerable. Its dry enough up here most of the year so that either hot or cold you can be fairly comfortable as long as the wind isn't hitting you. The main reason for keeping my thermostats pegged in the 40-45 degree range is to keep the rust at bay on all the machine tools.


 

09-17-2004
posted by Paychk




The way to change the color of your concrete floor is by using an acid based concrete stain. Burn proof, hot tire proof and if the floor gets chipped (within reason) it is still the same color.
__________________
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